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She'd prefer to be making money. But Sue Ruben knows it will take some sacrifices to get her arts management business off the ground. She didn't make any money in her first two years.

"I won't make any money until clients play gigs that I've booked, so there will be a delay in making any money at all for a couple of years," she explains. While Ruben may be new at the arts managing business, she's no stranger to the arts.

Ruben used to work as a presenter. That's the person in a venue who's responsible for booking artists. Now she's seeing things from the other side. "I'm always contacting presenters who have never heard of me, trying to promote my clients," says Ruben.

It can be tough creating interest in her clients. There are so many artists competing for so few performance opportunities. "It's a buyer's market out there because there are many more good performers than there are venues for them to perform in. So some creativity in marketing them is necessary," says Ruben. She's using some nontraditional techniques to promote an unknown chamber music ensemble.

"This group has no track record, but they're willing to let me be creative in developing their promotional package." Ruben has been using some unusual photos and sample interviews to present chamber music in a different light. "I'm beginning to see some positive results."

Ruben says there is money to be made in arts management -- especially if a client becomes a popular audience draw. "The sky could be the limit if you happen on to a group that really catches on," says Ruben.

It's good to work on management skills, but if you're going to work for a large organization it's also helpful to have a background in the arts, says Shelley Crawford. She runs an arts management program at a university. "A love and some background in one or more of the arts will complement your management skills," she says. "It is more complex than imagined, and one's ability to grasp the roles of the board, artistic director and managers makes for an extremely interesting career."

Like Ruben, Martin Mitchell is also hoping to be the manager behind a hot new artist. He believes putting his efforts behind a successful artist is what arts management is all about. However, he says there's a lot of work that goes into promoting artists before they become commercially successful.

"You can have the best dance troupe or group of musicians around, but they still need some promotion in order to be seen," says Mitchell. He represents a string quartet and a variety of dance groups. Again, it took a while before the checks started rolling in. For the first couple of years, the flow of money went in the opposite direction.

"There were promotional packages to do, photos, a bit of traveling, and most of these expenses came out of my pocket."

Mitchell sees those early years as an investment in a career he's hoping to have for the rest of his life. He says things have definitely picked up since then. And he's learned a lot of the tricks of the trade.

He recalls one instance when he was first starting out with a dance troupe, where one of his bookings almost ended up in a fistfight with the venue's manager. "I had this really progressive dance troupe and I'd arranged for them to do a performance in a theater in a smaller town," says Mitchell.

"Some of their numbers were a little racy and people were actually leaving in droves." Mitchell had to face an angry theater manager as well as an angry group of clients. Since then, he's become better at matching artist with venue. "There's no point in booking your clients in a venue where they're going to flop!"

Mitchell was realistic about the difficulties he might encounter when he decided to start an arts management company several years ago. As a musician himself, he's all too aware of how many starving artists there are out there and how few actually make a decent living.

"People aren't willing to pay for the arts in the same way they have in the past, so you have this situation where a few people make a lot of money, and the majority are just scraping by," says Mitchell.

He knows he has his work cut out for him in promoting unknown acts, but Mitchell says it's worth it just being able to be involved in the arts scene. "Every booking for your client is like a pat on the back for you as well."

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